tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6128643220897267519.post8000823986247973728..comments2023-10-09T04:48:16.837-04:00Comments on whalertly: Maybe it is time to bury the wiresBargahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13267934390167096150noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6128643220897267519.post-13808205491361876332009-02-06T00:01:00.000-05:002009-02-06T00:01:00.000-05:00notice that Whalertly was talking about cities, wh...notice that Whalertly was talking about cities, where we could just run it near the sewer. Then, we have less invasive work and we could always have easy accsessBargahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13267934390167096150noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6128643220897267519.post-47634058160050818982009-02-05T23:58:00.000-05:002009-02-05T23:58:00.000-05:00I suspect those tunnels, except in very high dense...I suspect those tunnels, except in very high dense places, are even more ridiculously expensive.<BR/><BR/>Based on everything I read, I think there is no particularly way of making underground wires economically viable.Kadimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04341840022248976546noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6128643220897267519.post-43582432805946011752009-02-05T18:42:00.000-05:002009-02-05T18:42:00.000-05:00Kadim, make it like OSUs, make tunnels in which ev...Kadim, make it like OSUs, make tunnels in which everything runs through (phone, electric, sewer, cable, etc) this way they are easy to access and we don't need to rip stuff up all the time. Sure, it might be more expensive, but the overall savings is better. If they are in this tunnel, the replacement cost is the same as aboveBargahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13267934390167096150noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6128643220897267519.post-78302085181873440742009-02-05T13:10:00.000-05:002009-02-05T13:10:00.000-05:00There was a nifty Slashdot discussion on the under...There was a <A HREF="http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/06/28/009226" REL="nofollow">nifty Slashdot discussion on the underground/above-ground issue.</A><BR/><BR/>It linked to this report from the Edison Electric Institute <A HREF="http://www.eei.org/ourissues/electricitydistribution/Documents/UndergroundReport.pdf" REL="nofollow">on the cost benefit analysis of underground powerlines.</A><BR/><BR/>Key points:<BR/><BR/>*Underground lines have fewer outages, but when they do have an outage, the outage is significantly longer than above-ground lines, and so the advantage of fewer outages is lost.<BR/><BR/>*Underground lines are 10 times more expensive than above-ground. Page 18 of that report said that 10 hurricanes could hit Florida, and still above-ground powerlines would be cheaper. <BR/><BR/>*Maintenance costs for underground lines can be more expensive, because specialized equipment is required.<BR/><BR/>*Since installation and maintenance costs are higher, and there is no reliability advantage, the only advantage of underground lines is their aesthetics.Kadimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04341840022248976546noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6128643220897267519.post-59536302800365363572009-02-05T09:58:00.000-05:002009-02-05T09:58:00.000-05:00I'm absolutely in favor of upgrading our electric ...I'm absolutely in favor of upgrading our electric grid and burying as many of our utilities as possible. I've always thought economic development dollars should be applied to highway and utility infrastructure improvements, and not to micromanaging how a few parcels of land get developed. Install a 21st-century infrastructure, and let the "invisible hand" (of Adam Smith writings) of the free marketplace determine how parcels of land get developed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6128643220897267519.post-82154471753911294452009-02-03T08:07:00.000-05:002009-02-03T08:07:00.000-05:00valdi pointmy source said it was 5 times more expe...valdi point<BR/>my source said it was 5 times more expensive (some power country out of FL) to install the underground. This does mean that unless you plan on replacements more then 5 times there is damage, then it is better for the undergroundWhalertlyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07813665460494699983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6128643220897267519.post-16916273530861386022009-02-03T02:18:00.000-05:002009-02-03T02:18:00.000-05:00I didn't read it that say. It says the entire proj...I didn't read it that say. It says the entire project is $11 million, and it would cost an extra $2.8 million to bury the lines underground. <BR/><BR/>Presumably, the cost of above ground power lines is included in the $11 million, but how much the above ground lines are is not discussed.Kadimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04341840022248976546noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6128643220897267519.post-71499428124650456212009-02-03T02:13:00.000-05:002009-02-03T02:13:00.000-05:00Kadim, i think the line is not specific but implie...Kadim, i think the line is not specific but implied. If it costs 10mil to install above and 12mil below, notice the 20% incrase<BR/><BR/>which means that if there is less then a 1-5 damage ration (shown that it is less) then it is more efficient to put them undergroundBargahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13267934390167096150noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6128643220897267519.post-21934837639990303832009-02-02T22:40:00.000-05:002009-02-02T22:40:00.000-05:00Can you show me the line you're referring to?Can you show me the line you're referring to?Kadimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04341840022248976546noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6128643220897267519.post-44711763787554307952009-02-02T21:11:00.000-05:002009-02-02T21:11:00.000-05:00@kadimsorry, i meant it is 1.2 times the normal co...@kadim<BR/>sorry, i meant it is 1.2 times the normal cost (1/5 more expensive). Mine says it is 5. yours is helping my case<BR/><BR/>AEP claims that they don't because the people don't want it. But as I have never seen that option, I am not sure the people don't want it<BR/><BR/>AEP is paid no matter what, it costs them less to put em in the sky so they doBargahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13267934390167096150noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6128643220897267519.post-74983832385061967892009-02-02T21:09:00.000-05:002009-02-02T21:09:00.000-05:00At AnderI agree that we should invest and work in ...At Ander<BR/><BR/>I agree that we should invest and work in it. The problem right now is taht it is not stable and not powerful enough. Once that is fixed we should be able to. However, in the meantime, lets put stuff undergroundBargahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13267934390167096150noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6128643220897267519.post-14042471241314057172009-02-02T13:55:00.000-05:002009-02-02T13:55:00.000-05:00I'm sorry, I missed something. Where does it say 1...I'm sorry, I missed something. Where does it say 1/5 of the cost to bury in my article?<BR/><BR/>I'm also sure that if burying the wires had all the advantages you were talking about, AEP would insist on it more often.Kadimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04341840022248976546noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6128643220897267519.post-41509399094666289472009-02-02T11:39:00.000-05:002009-02-02T11:39:00.000-05:00then read about the experiments. He did it. They a...then read about the experiments. He did it. They almost completed two towers. The technology is coming back. If there is a limit on how far the electromagnetic spectrum can be distributed then why can we have all of these cell towers and everything else? <BR/><BR/>Transmission of large amounts of power has been done and is still done today with microwaves. <BR/><BR/>1893: Nikola Tesla demonstrated the illumination of vacuum bulbs wirelessly (without any wires connected to the bulbs) at the World Columbian Exposition in Chicago.<BR/><BR/>1996: Auckland Uniservices develops an Electric Bus power system using Inductive Power Transfer to charge(30-60kW) opportunistically commencing implementation in New Zealand. Prof John Boys Team commission 1st commercial IPT Bus in the world at Whakarewarewa, in New Zealand.<BR/><BR/><BR/>2005: Prof Boys' team at The University of Auckland, refines 3-phase IPT Highway and pick-up systems allowing transfer of power to moving vehicles in the lab<BR/><BR/># 2008: Bombardier offers new wireless transmission product PRIMOVE, a power system for use on trams and light-rail vehicles.<BR/><BR/>2008: Intel reproduces Prof. John Boys group's 1980's experiments by wirelessly powering a light bulb with 75% efficiency.<BR/><BR/>http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/132/brilliant.html<BR/><BR/>http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2007/wireless-0607.html<BR/><BR/>Of course it isn't reliable. We spent $1 trillion last year on bombs and killing people and for our debts instead of figuring out how to give everyone in the world power. The technology was buried because it couldn't be profited from. <BR/><BR/>If you think our current system needs to be kept, you should learn about electricity, it's generation and distribution. We waste an insane amount of fuels just producing the stuff and an even bigger number is wasted just pushing the electricity around the wires. We are destroying the earth and wasting resources for profit. <BR/><BR/>You think we can take something that was as theoretical as a nuclear bomb and make it a reality in 6 years but can't take technology from 1893 and make it happen?Anderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05094916709895149350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6128643220897267519.post-2628947639503842602009-02-02T08:04:00.000-05:002009-02-02T08:04:00.000-05:00AnonI do not have an account with Gaiaonline so i ...Anon<BR/><BR/>I do not have an account with Gaiaonline so i have no idea what you are talking about...<BR/><BR/>Also, arrested development was so much betterWhalertlyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07813665460494699983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6128643220897267519.post-13263165735654447412009-02-02T08:03:00.000-05:002009-02-02T08:03:00.000-05:00Anderi believe that there is a limit to how far th...Ander<BR/>i believe that there is a limit to how far that power can go and how much it holds. Plus, i am not sure if tesla ever built and actual working model<BR/><BR/>either way, we need to keep the same grid or make it better. I believe wireless is not reliable enough and is not strong enough to do that.Whalertlyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07813665460494699983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6128643220897267519.post-36283833586300470252009-02-02T08:02:00.000-05:002009-02-02T08:02:00.000-05:00Kadimthat is what AEP said, but they might have me...Kadim<BR/>that is what AEP said, but they might have meant feet. Your source says that it is an extra 1/5th of the cost to bury, mine says that it is 5 times as much. Either way, the costs after only a few years of statistical repairs makes underground betterWhalertlyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07813665460494699983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6128643220897267519.post-59794021537209123382009-02-02T00:51:00.000-05:002009-02-02T00:51:00.000-05:00ok ill agree to let you bury the wire but only if ...ok ill agree to let you bury the wire but only if you get Julia Louis-Dreyfus to hang out with me<BR/><BR/>just a lil Curb Ya Enthusiasm ref for you, you prob didn't get it since you're too busy playing gaia "anime message board" onlineAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6128643220897267519.post-62751692746766943072009-02-02T00:38:00.000-05:002009-02-02T00:38:00.000-05:00Okay, not the only reason, but JP Morgan couldn't ...Okay, not the only reason, but JP Morgan couldn't make profit if he didn't have a meter on the stuff.Anderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05094916709895149350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6128643220897267519.post-18888550809347844452009-02-02T00:37:00.000-05:002009-02-02T00:37:00.000-05:00how about wireless electricity? the only reason AC...how about wireless electricity? the only reason AC was wired was because JP Morgan couldn't put a meter on Tesla's Wardenclyffe Tower so he scrapped the project. We burn insane amounts of fuels just to push electricity around the grid. Not including the power we produce that just goes unused to ensure demand is met. <BR/><BR/>Wireless electricity is making a comeback in rechargeable electronics and it is being looked at for peoples homes. <BR/><BR/>"...as well as the Tesla effect of wireless energy transfer to wirelessly power electronic devices which Tesla demonstrated on a low scale (lightbulbs) as early as 1893 and aspired to use for the intercontinental transmission of industrial energy levels in his unfinished Wardenclyffe Tower project."<BR/><BR/><BR/>Though I do agree that lines should be buried if we are going to continue to use them. We need to create more local sources of power generation and bury the lines though. Instead of these massive generating plants that waste insane amounts of resources. <BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikola_TeslaAnderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05094916709895149350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6128643220897267519.post-53078644457936714452009-02-02T00:21:00.000-05:002009-02-02T00:21:00.000-05:00$20 per mile? $100/mile? What?Underground wires ar...$20 per mile? $100/mile? What?<BR/><BR/>Underground wires are enormously expensive, as this <A HREF="http://www.columbuslocalnews.com/articles/2009/01/29/multiple_papers/news/allhlcounc_20090127_0223pm_4.txt" REL="nofollow">very recent example shows.</A>Kadimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04341840022248976546noreply@blogger.com